Re: Heating for smaller tanks etc

registered · by **Netty** on Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:23 pm

What she said [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

We've always found PKs to be slightly hardier than the long finned and also had better spawns with them too.

As well as thinking about what you like, you need to consider being able to sell them too. Maybe have a look around to see what's out there and what's selling.

I do know that we get lots of enquiries about Crowntails and there don't seem to be many nice UK bred ones on the market.

by **mickelmass** on Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:22 am

Yes Incognito, unfortunately that just what he is. When I got him, I had no idea that there were such brilliant sites as this, whereby you could actually buy real pedigree Betta, be it from domesticated or wild breed Thai or Cambodian stock. I suppose all I can do with my shop Betta now, is probably breed him with a female shop Betta? I don't want to get rid of him becasue he is so pretty. At least breeding him with a shop female will give me some insight and training for whe I get my first pedigree stock won'r it?

by **incognito** on Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:42 am

If you do buy a pet shop VT female specifically to have a trial run... consider if the pet shop you buy her from look after them well enough and if so it's worth also asking if they'd have some of the fry just in case.

Posting fish is expensive and people won't pay it for a VT when they can buy one for £3 in local shop.

If they'll take the fry off your hands while you've having a trial run then go for it, if there's a chance you could be stuck with a lot of fry you can't sell or give away then I'd have a rethink.

by **mickelmass** on Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:59 pm

Just as a matter of interest and also so that I can learn even more but what substrate does one use for a Betta aquarium? Some boooks I have read say that you don't use any and yet others I have read have said that you do use substrate with plenty of plants, so who do I believe? Personally, I don't think an aquarium is an aquarium unless it has a nice array of plants of all sizes and colour in it but that is only my choice. My community aquarium here is quite heavily planted and the occupants are always chasing around through the plants all the time, including the "Bog Standard Betta"! LOL! I think all Betta that are purchased from non-breeder aquarist shops should now be called "Bog Standard Betta" or BSB for short. It rolls off of the tongue

and sounds good as well! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]. I don't know where the hell that bloody raspberry blower came from but I certainly didn't put it there!

I only ask as I have two big bags of silica sand here that I was going to use for one of my larger aquariums not set up yet but I want to use it now as see what it looks like. I have seen some really nice pix on here of other members Betta tanks and they are really heavily planted. I do recall seeing a film on YouTube though, showing a lovely Betta breeding tank and that was heavily planted and the male was constantly going down to the bottom of the tank to collect the eggs and blow them back into his bubble nest and some of the eggs fell on plant leaves. He just picked them up and blew them into his nest. So is it a yes for substarate and planting or a no? Cheers!

registered · by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:45 pm

Hi

We have different set-ups for different situations. Display tanks have substrate, either sand or fine gravel along with silk plants in most. We have other tanks that are set-up without substrate, but with silk plants and caves etc.

We hardly ever use substrate in our growing out tanks for the babies. Its so much easier to keep them clean Very Happy

We use floating plants in the tanks without substrate though.

We also have three larger tanks that are fully planted with live plants.

Just depends on what the tank is for really Question

by **mickelmass** on Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:35 pm

Mainly for growing out and breeding but nowhere near ready yet though!

I have some spare second hand glass aquariums that the lady in the aquarist shop sold me very cheap, as they were to small for her stock needs anymore, so I can keep them substrate free for growing out.

As for breeding, it will have to be silica sand, plants (rooted and floating), some bog wood and a few coconut halves that I made caves out of and I presume that will suffice? Oh and some peat (maybe) and/or Indian Almond Leaves as I believe that Betta prefer water with Indian Almond Leaves in when breeding as it makes their water soft/acidic and helps get them into breeding condition along with the bloodworm etc.

EDIT:
Forgot to ask but can snails and/or shrimp go in with the Betta as well to help with the cleaning?

registered · by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:02 pm

Hi

In the spawning tank, its far better to have a bare bottom. The reasons for this are that it will be easier for the male to retrieve the eggs that fall from the nest and it'll be easier to spot clean when the fry are free swimming. Our basic spawning tank is 10-15 gallons, no substrate, sponge filter, some silk plants and floating plants.

Indian Almond Leaf (IAL) is a good thing to use as it not only softens the water, it also has natural healing properties Very Happy

and bloodworm is about the best food for conditioning you can use Very Happy

With the snails and shrimp, if you mean in with adult bettas then they should be fine thumbup

Some bettas are more tollerant than others though. If you mean in the spawning tank, snails wont harm the fry although they do tend to produce a fair amount of waste. Not sure about the shrimp?? but i guess most shrimp are veggies so assume they would be fine. Some people use baby Bristlenose plecs in the spawning tank Very Happy

by **incognito** on Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:20 pm

I was typing while van added to the thread so if i've repeated anything forgive me.

I've a few 80 ltr tanks with undergravel filters i use for growout tanks but usually stick to the breeding tank for the first month... bare bottomed and all plants etc. removed as soon as I take the male out.

The fry are tiny for the first few weeks and really are far easier to work with in an empty tank (except 'foam' filter.. don't use a box filter for newborn fry... they will get sucked in and drown as they can't get out and heater).

there's a thread in here somewhere.. show us your breeding/ spawn tank or similar... they are very boring but it's more practical for the owner not necessarily preferred by the fish lol

Breeding tanks
Ofcourse the nicer the better for the breeding adults.. heavily planted are always good... plenty of cover for female but substrate can make new fry hard work... its harder to see what waste and uneaten food there is.

I've never used snails or shrimp in breeding/growout tanks but they are usually no problem as tank mates for adult bettas.

the soft ph is always a bonus to for spawning... Ial also seem to help the bubbles stick together and last for longer.

You keep researching and asking questions, work out what's practical for you and you'll make a fine betta breeder

Good Luck [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by **mickelmass** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:52 am

Well, thanks you very much for all that incognito and Van. I was wondering who this van was as incognito pointed me to some pictures of your breeding room (I think it was anyway)? Now I know [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]!

Unfortunately, I had to recently move to a ground floor, one bedroom flat for health reasons so space in the main rooms is at a premium but as I may have mentioned, the huge, walk-in cupboard in the hallway will (I think) come in very handy for keeping all my tanks in, other than than the 60L community in the lounge and I may just have enough room for a slightly larger one in the lounge as well?

In all honesty, I only planned on getting a mix of 20L and 40L glass aquariums as they will fit ideally on shelves in the Betta cupboard (sounds like a b****y book), so I hope that they will be of a sort of OK size? I have read somewhere that Betta don't need stacks of room anyway, so would a 20L or 40L tank be OK for a breeding pair and (say) a 40L as a growing on tank for fry/sub-adults?

I was also thinking of keeping a few young (4.5 months) females that I have lined up for purchasing, in one of the 20L tanks as well, to keep for breeding at a later date? Oh God, it's all getting confusing again as I don't have the room for really large tanks so it may not work? I may have quite a bit of room along one wall in my bedroom for a large tank but I have to see how much room the dialysis machine and RO water softening and filtering system will take upo first but there should be plenty of room there (he says)?

registered · by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:28 am

Hi
If you're stuck for space clearseal tanks, 24"x8"x8" divided into three work very well for males. Like this one below -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

You could use a 40L for spawning, although the male would need his own tank to go back too. The female would also need her own tank too. Only have the male and female together for breeding.
You would have to move some of the fry, as they grow, to either a bigger growout or split them into other similar sized growouts.
We used a 15-20 gallon spawning tank and have a 30 gallon growout too, so have approx 50 gallons worth of growout room.

Here's some pics of how i set the divided tanks up -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

We ran out of space too, so they now go on the wall

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by **mickelmass** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:54 am

That tank looks absolutely excellent Van and my local aquarist shop has exactly the same size in stock as well, as I was in there today! I think they are around the £16 mark (without hood) are they not or maybe that should be £26? Can tube lights be put in the hood as well Van and what about dividers? I am absolutely crap at DIY, so I would have to buy some pre-made dividers so I suppose they are either made to fit or you just cut them to size? I see you also have a Hagen Mini heater in there as well. They are a boon and I was actually going to buy a couple this evening from eBay - do you use one or two for this setup and what wattage please? I also noticed that you had a nice little filter as well. What make was that please and where does tha pipe go on the top of it? I saw that you had something else on the side of the aquarium (a little black box thingy), what is that as that also has a pipe on it? Blimey, so many ideas and so little time! Now you have given me food for thought and it's payday now as well, so there should be about £400 in my bank by now! Ooos, that's the bill money gone down the swanee? I supppose I can always use the 20L ones that I have ordered as breeding tanks couldn't I, rather than let them sit there gathering dust?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
In all honesty, I will get one of those Clearseal tanks tomoz as it's also not only payday but my day off from dialysis so I can stay out and spend, spend, spend! I think she also has the hoods as well, though they look a little flimsy to be able to hold tubes etc? Now I won't be going to bed tonight thinking of what I can buy tomoz and getting it all sorted over in my head! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Thank you so much and again, apologies for waffling on like a lunatic (which I have been told I am actually)? This is brilliant! So much food for thought and you are all so helpful. Right, off to check my bank balance now. Cheers and speak soon I am sure?

registered · by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:20 am

Hi
Thanks for the compliments.

My tanks cost me about £17 with the hood. I have fitted 18" tubes in the hoods Very Happy

We use either Interpet PF mini filters or Elite mini filters.
Heaters - we use 25w. Prefer the Aquaone or Visatherm heaters as had a bad experience with an Elite heater (stat stuck on and cooked fish)

The dividers are these [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
You can cut them easily with scissors and use the holders that come with them. If you want it more permanent, you can use A4 paper spines (the things that you can keep paper together with) I then use aquairium sealant to stick the binders/spines in place, leave to dry for 24hrs and then slide the dividers in.

The tube is just syphoning tube that fits the filter outlet. The tube goes across the top of the dividers (i have cut a small groove in the tops of the dividers so the tube lies better as in the 2nd picture) into the opposite end of the tank. At that end I have either drilled or melted small holes over the last 5" or so, and block the end of the tube with some sponge.

I find with the heater in the middle section the flow keeps all the sections at the same temperature.

Dont cut the dividers too short as bettas can jump Very Happy

Not sure which "black box" you mean? In the third picture, the light starter unit can be seen on the right.

by **mickelmass** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:48 am

Second picture with the Hagen elite mini heater in it. Just to the right and down a bit is a small plastic box with a pipe going from it. It doesn't really matter as I only wondered what it was and did that's all, as I am a nosy git!?

I nearly got two of those Hagen mini heaters today but I am glad you just told me what you did! I was only going to get them as they were nice, small and compact as I haven't seeen any others that are really that small (they do come with stats as well don't they as they are so small, I thought they might not)? I think the normal size ones will be either to big or if they do fit, will look well out of scale and ugly? Also, looking at the picture with the filter in it, I guessed it was an Interpet PF Mini but I will also have a look at the Hagen ones as well. I do have a spare AquaFlow 200 internal filter that came with the 60l SuperFish aquarium but I think that will be one, two bulky and two, the flow will probably be far too strong as I know Betta hate fast flowing water and yes, I do also know that they are jumpers and very good at it as well!

I don't use the AquaFlow 200 now as I got myself an Eheim BioPower 160 canister filter instead. Trouble is, it's a lovely little filter - when it works that is! I have to keep swishing the blue sponge around in old aquarium water every four or five days as the flow from the power head of the filter end up just a trickle, as though everything is blocked and when I look at the big blue sponge, it usually is, with loads of slime, detrius etc on the bottom and around the whole diameter of the sponge. I have no idea why it does that but it's a damned nuisance having to unblock the sponge every four or five days! I also spoke to someone else on another forum yesterday evening and he said he had exactly the same trouble with an Eheim AquaBall filter that he had. So he removed the original sponge and used the sponge that Eheim use for their external filters and by all accounts, it worked.

Right, money is in the bank, so I am now just going onto eBay to see what is the cheapest deal I can get for the filters, heaters etc. I hope you don't mind but I saved your pix not for gain but purely for future reference as it's nice to see how the experts do it! Cheers and probably speak soon as I know I shall deffo be up all night now even if nobody else is? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Thanks again to the experts!

registered · by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:52 am

The little black box is an Elite mini filter Very Happy

by **mickelmass** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:24 am

Ah! So now I know! Just helps the other internal filter along does it, as back-up or is that all you use for filtration? Cheers!

by **mickelmass** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:18 pm

Well Van and igcognito, I went to my LFS this morning and they had two clear-Seal 24"x8"x8" tanks in stock, so I purchased one this morning and will get the other one tomorrow. What a b****y con though! £24.95 for the tank with a crappy and very flimsy plastic hood that you can't even put tubes in, a free bottle of Tetra Goldfish AquaSafe and a free tub of Tetra Goldfish flake food (both of which the lady in my LFS said I can still use for tropical fish, though I have my doubts)? I also ordered two sets of the dividers from aquacadabra (petermost) on eBay but will have to order another set later today now I am getting the second tank tomorrow.

I see DF Fishway (is it Darren?) has some beautiful fish for sale. It's a shame as I could get a couple but the water in the aquariums isn't even cycled yet. I put a handful of gravel in them from my community aquarium and a jug of the water as well from when I did my last water exchange. Is it also a good idea to give my community tank filter media a swish in the new aquarium water as well I wonder as it's full of good bacteria now?

I wish it wouldn't take so long for these aquariums of ours to cycle and mature? We never did all that in the old days. It was just a case of cleaned substrate in, water half way up, plants in, finish filling aquarium, turn pump for undergravel filters on and add a bit of fish food. Leave it for a week or so and the water was fine! We never lost any fish and they breed with gusto as well (that's how I bred my "real" Honey Gouramis). No faffing about with testing this and testing that although now we know a lot more about tropical fish husbandry, it is most beneficial for us but more so the fish. Just takes so long before the fish can arrive at their new home! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Never mind, it's for the good of the fish, and that's all that matters.

I also managed to get an Interpet PF Mini power filter from my LFS. Again, yet another con or so I thought but it wasn't really. It cast £21.50 but seeing as the next cheapest one on eBay was £17.99, plus £3.50 p&p, it was about the same price. The cheapest I saw on eBay was for £9.99 with aquakoi but for some unknown reason, eBay told me that Aquakoi had barred me from ever shopping there again, so I spent around £160 on getting all the stuff I needed at other shops here and there and paying through the nose for different p&p for the different shops, when if I could have shopped with aquakoi, by buying so much in bulk, the P&P would have been a lot cheaper! So I emailed aquakoi and asked why they had barred me but it turns out that they hadn't. It had happened to quite a few of their customes last week and this week and a lot of them were regular customers as well. It was eBays fault again. Kevin for aquakoi phoned them only last week to tell them to stop barring people from using his shop, but as usual, eBay PayPal are a law unto themselves and didn't listen, being the bunch of w*****s they are! I got two 25w Visatherm heaters as well as there were no Aquaones for sle on there, well, only a 300w one and I certainly didn't want that. So I am alal ready to go just as soonas my mate gets here. Then ther is the laborius task of rinsing all the silica sand of and there are two 15kg bas of that! Oh well, it's been another waffle again I'm afraid lads, for which I apolgise again. Will keep you posted how it all goes but not so lenghthy next time (he says)? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by **Rezz** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:54 pm

Wow, all sounds good, definitly keep us updated with pictures as you go along!

-Rezz

by **mickelmass** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:15 pm

I will indeed Rezz! I have to make sure the aquariums have finished their cycles first and then buy some stock in, so it will be a good few weeks yet I'm afraid?

Yet again I am having trouble getting hold of household ammonia to start the cycles with! My local Boots don't stock it, the big Boots in the next town don't either and Homebase is to far away for me to go as I don't drive! I could get a bus but that would be defeating the object then. Surely there must be something els one can use to start the cycle going in the tank(s) and preferably not a babies piddly nappy LOL!

I am going to drop a good handful of gravel from my community tank, into the Betta tanks and also throw in a jug of the water as well, just to start the bacterial growth, so that will help. I also toyed with the idea of swishing the sponge media from the community tank, through the new setups but I don't know if one, that would help and two, it will probably upset the bacterial growth in the community tank as well? It takes so long. Yet I set my community tank up with fish in it and a few months down the line, the Cory's have started throwing eggs all over the front and sides of the aquarium glass. All eaten now but once they get into their own biotope, they should spawn quiite easily again I hope?

registered · by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:17 pm

I know the hoods looks flimsy, but they can take a tube thumbup

Water and gravel from a mature tank will have very little beneficial bacteria in them. The best way, as you already have a mature filter running, is to do whats called "cloning". Just swap one of the little sponges from the new filter, with a piece of filter material from your mature filter thumbup

As long as you dont take any more than a third of the mature media out of that filter it'll be fine. The new filter will then be instantly capable of converting Ammonia and nitrItes. You will need to keep the new filter fed until you put fish in though, to keep the bacteria alive. Fish food can be used, a pinch every day.

by **mickelmass** on Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:43 pm

I mentioned to the woman in the shop about the possibility of putting a tube in the hood but she was adamant that it couldn't be done but I informed her that nothing is that impssible and that I thought it was more than possible to fit a tube in the hood!

I said that if you use one of the new, thinner tubes, you can use silicone sealant to stick the tube clamps to the highest point of the hood and the thinner tube should not be that close to the aquarium water then and you could aslo use a plastic or glass condensation tray just to make sure it didn't get wet.

Well, that's my theory anyway but putting it into practice may be a totally different kettle of fish (pun intended)? I certainly wouldn't fancy using anything other than a proper aquarium tube though as anything else, like a normal, (for example), energy saving light bulb would still give off far to much heat which would not just raise the temerature of the water but also melt the aquarium hood itself! Anyway, how would you do it Van, or have you succeeded already? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]