Is it ethical?

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:16 pm

Hi
Was browsing the betta sales on fleabay and noticed a seller that was selling betta fry at 3 weeks old. They state they would rather not post, but would if the buyer insisted.

I can't decide whether its ethical or not?? They may well be fine, but knowing how easy it is lose fry at that age I think its a bit early.

by **damo2904** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:40 pm

I saw that, & i thought that was a little bit to early aswell!!!! They look too tiny still....

wrong! Mad

by **Time-Out** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:11 pm

It's a risk, isn't it? Isn't shipping any fish a risk? I don't think you can say 'right' or 'wrong' for something like that without looking at the bigger picture. Why is it more wrong to ship fry than it is to ship adults? Adults are bigger, experience turbulence a lot more, produce more waste and get subjected to more stress. Fry are smaller, can hide where there is less movement, produce hardly any waste to speak of...

It's a free world... I was thinking of selling my cat on ebay...

by **kizno1** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:20 pm

I wouldnt personally risk it. I know my bn fry wouldnt have coped with it. If they are going to breed them they should be prepared to look after them until they are big enough to more safely posted. The difference with sending adults and fry are adults are alot hardier and more tolerant of water conditions and can go longer without food.

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:25 pm

Time-Out wrote:It's a risk, isn't it? Isn't shipping any fish a risk? I don't think you can say 'right' or 'wrong' for something like that without looking at the bigger picture. Why is it more wrong to ship fry than it is to ship adults? Adults are bigger, experience turbulence a lot more, produce more waste and get subjected to more stress. Fry are smaller, can hide where there is less movement, produce hardly any waste to speak of...

It's a free world... I was thinking of selling my cat on ebay...

Adults wouldn't experience any more or less turbulence than fry though. It would be exactly the same. Fry are a lot weaker, and more susceptible to illness. Adults shouldn't be producing much, if any, waste if they have been prepared properly.

You can't sell cats on ebay Rolling Eyes

by **Irish_Lass** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:01 pm

Isn't there also an issue with the fact that they haven't grown enough at that point to know if you're selling "damaged goods" or not? I don't know how better to word it. I mean look how many of Damo's fry died, even after the 4 week period? In my opinion if he/she was a responsible breeder they wouldn't be willing to ship at all at this early stage. Just my two pence. Smile

by **Time-Out** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:12 pm

I think the question of 'ethicalness' arises for the buyers then, don't you? From the original post, it would seem that the seller is well aware that the fry may not make it and strongly recommends against shipping. That seems fair to me. It doesn't seem like the seller is forcing anyone to buy under false pretences. Then again, I'm not buying any... so who am I to say?

Vandraco aka Bronzecat wrote:Adults wouldn't experience any more or less turbulence than fry though.

Ever ducked under a wave at the beach or swimming pool?

Vandraco aka Bronzecat wrote:You can't sell cats on ebay

Bother. More's the shame. I'll have to try a car boot sale.

by **kizno1** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:17 pm

But surely the fry would be more likely to get damaged. A fry is tiny in comparison to a adult so being flung the same distance wouldnt do the fry any good. I personally dont see the point in risking it this early.

by **Time-Out** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:21 pm

Then don't ask for postage lol

by **kizno1** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:23 pm

But evan being moved around in the bag is going to stress them then going into different water conditions at that age isnt going to do them any good.

by **Time-Out** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:26 pm

kizno1 wrote: A fry is tiny in comparison to a adult so being flung the same distance wouldnt do the fry any good.

Drop an insect from the first floor of a house, then jump out. I bet the insect took less damage. Being lighter in weight and smaller in size means you don't feel certain forces as much.

I reckon siphoning is far more turbulent and stressful. Perhaps fun, even. It's like a reverse water flume.

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:27 pm

Time-Out wrote:I think the question of 'ethicalness' arises for the buyers then, don't you? From the original post, it would seem that the seller is well aware that the fry may not make it and strongly recommends against shipping. That seems fair to me. It doesn't seem like the seller is forcing anyone to buy under false pretences. Then again, I'm not buying any... so who am I to say?

Totally disagree that its just the ethics of the buyers. A lot of buyers are inexperienced and wouldn't have any idea of the dangers. The breeder obviously knows the risks, so why not say "No Postage at all"? If they were so strongly opposed to shipping that is??

Time-Out wrote:Ever ducked under a wave at the beach or swimming pool?

I really don't see how that has any bearing on a fish in a bag Whistling

by **kizno1** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:28 pm

Well either way i still dont think being moved at that age will do the fry any good and i think its just likely to get stressed.

by **Time-Out** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:30 pm

Just like any other fish/cat.

by **2tall** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:31 pm

Oh, its unethical in my book and I'm not even experienced. I don't know how to really distinguish between the fry and the transition to fish. That is wrong on their end in my opinion! One has to afford them the best opportunity to survive. They should be boycotted!

by **Netty** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:31 pm

To me personally 3 weeks is too much of a critical stage to be moving young fry whether by post or not. It's around this time that they'll start to take their first breaths of air from the surface of the water. If the air is too cold it can kill them.

Also there is the issue of feeding. Not all fry that young will take dry food so new owners need to be aware of how to feed such young fry. It also depends on their development with the breeder. In some spawns the fry can be much smaller than others of the same age.

When breeding we never move fry until they are between 1 to 2 months old. There are just too many things that can go wrong at that stage so why add more risks.

by **kizno1** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:34 pm

Time-Out wrote:Just like any other fish/cat.

Yes but at that stage the stress will do alot more damage to the fish because there not as tolerant. And what does a cat have ti do with posting fry?

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:43 pm

Irish_Lass picked up on a good point. At 3 weeks old it would be virtually impossible to tell if any of the fry were carrying deformities.

"Insects out of buildings" isn't really an argument. Its the fact that fry are not as physically strong, and are more sensitive to stress, water quality and temperature fluctuations.

I just don't see the point of selling them so young as the risks are higher. If its because the breeder doesn't have space, then stop breeding for a while.

by **silverrabbit** on Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:43 am

Even to collect them would be a bit dodgy in my opinion... surely at that age they're sensitive to water temp changes, are TINY so you don't really know what sex/colour/tail type you're getting.

I wouldn't want to risk putting lives through that, and think the seller is not being responsible by selling them at that age.

PS. Time-Out, you're acting like a troll with all this cat rubbish. I don't know why you're trying to wind people up but this is a happy forum where everyone makes an effort to respect each other

banghead

by **Time-Out** on Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:44 am

I'm not acting like a troll, I was trying to lighten up the discussion. It seemed a bit heavy to me, for this 'happy forum'. Thanks for the insult :-(

Is it ethical?

Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?

Re: Is it ethical?